Hedlyn

Without laming out and getting a quiver of blight, archery's still got a number of glaring weaknesses. Namely that any decent parrier in dull copper or better will laugh at you all day.

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Achenar

UO PvP just simply fails.

Run run run run run run run run AND SOME MORE RUN.


(Yeah not too constructive comment but that's really all I should have to say about it)



Also I've seen some deadly necro/archers, so archery isn't exactly useless.

Hedlyn

Nyeeeh. If there's no skill in UOPvP then why is it that some people consistently die and others consistently live and kill? No matter of template or connection, it's an issue of timing and judgment and I've seen it countless time.

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Achenar

Never said (or never meant) that UO PvP doesn't take skills. I'm just bored with the running.

Rangarig

The issue with PVP is not really only about the balancing though, but also about the percentage of PVP in roleplay situation. I don't think anyone can deny that the numbers of players suddenly logging on when a PVP battle happened was an illusion. Many admitted that they only really joined in when RP led to a combat/battle.

Underlying plot line/general setting or not, it doesn't really help with motivation when 1/3rd or 1/2 the players in any given guild play like that, but I agree that with the nobility and Trinsic/Vesper conflict such situation eventually led to more dynamic in the campaigns. But that shouldn't be it ...

I'm probably one of the few people who got a great deal of enjoyment out of playing simple townsfolk and didn't need to always play the heroic paladin/guard or evil thug/necromancer. Even when I had a prominent main character, I would still take time to play townsfolk, simply to give the urban landscape something to fill it with apart from NPCs. I understand why this is rare - most people want to feel special and live a heroic life, rather than a mundane one, but a situation where everyone is a hero will never really arise. There's always going to be a sidekick and sometimes it's just going to be you ...

When we had larger communities, it was just easier to fill the screen with lower ranks. Nowadays only the most die-hard players are still left and most of them, through time and/or dedication have reached a higher rank. "Too many chiefs, not enough indians" would be the problem here in some sense. Combined with "too many guilds, not enough guildmates" you can see the problem forming ...

There is also the matter of tasks of individual guilds. If you don't really have anything to do, it is difficult to create enthusiasm for your guild. Additionally, a lot of guilds just don't have the detailed internal plot anymore that they used to have, or rather, those that do are doing much better than those that do not. You can take examples like guard duty and move from there. I recall that during my time as Templar, guard duty always included other tasks, such as patrols, escorts, information to visitors, etc. and even sending out gathering parties for reagents (sometimes picking them off the ground, sometimes a trading mission to an NPC city). In the end, it was not only the Grandmaster who told us what to do, but the tasks and decisions were delegated.

I'm sorry if I am zero-ing in on DOT here, but since Kaelyn asked the initial question, it makes sense to use this example. In Trinsic the guard duty is pretty much limited to guarding the west gate and chasing/hunting/slaying trespassers and those that break the ridiculous laws of the Duchy. I understand why some of the laws are there and I understand that some of them are born out of OOC annoyance over certain events/behaviours. However, if it is all you get to do day in day out, no wonder you get bored. In addition to this, people who are constantly confronted with you in the same manner, imposing your rules onto them, they get bored with you and leave.

In a way the diversity is what you need. Not a diversity of rules and regulations that you can enforce, but diversity of tasks that are defined. An overlying plot for the community helps, but an overlying plot for the guild is already a big step and I'm sorry, but "Subjects to the Duchy and City of Trinsic" is not enough in a way. Guardsmen only guarding isn't either. Guardsmen guarding and training and gathering resources and escorting and exploring and securing and and and ... however can yield a lot more interest.

I know that UO has changed over time, but some of the old formulas still apply and can help make the game more interesting. It just needs time, ideas and a bit of dedication, because instant gratification is not something you will get out of UO roleplay.

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Gwen Irima

Good post Rangarig

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Himasa

Exactly. Problem identified. Now let's wait for something to be done about it. ()

Achenar

For me, the PvP side of the RP is dead exactly because of the game mechanics (like it or not, for some PvP is part of the RP).

But yeah, otherwise you're right. I have always thought that UO as a game is GREAT for RP. Although I'm not really so sure if I'd still play UO even if it did have enough role players because I kind of expect other aspects of the game like pure PvE and PvP to be enjoyable in an mmorpg, which, in UO it is not.

Rangarig

Of course UO is not going to satisfy anyone with regards to PvE and PvP anymore, at least not with the alternatives out there. I have always hated PvP in UO, but in WoW I actually enjoyed it and spent some time doing it, because the system just works. I tried it in LotRO and it was not bad, though I mostly had lag issues when I did, rather than problems with the way they handled it. By comparison, the 10 year old UO is going to be antiquated.

But what WoW and LotRO do not offer is the flexibilty of the engine for roleplaying purposes. One of my biggest annoyances with those games is that it does not matter whether I am playing the game or not, the world is not affected by me at all. In UO on the other hand, I can plaster a dungeon with books that have my name in it, or build a house, or imprint the landscape with a "Rangy was here!" of some sort. That is UO's strong point.

Additionally you get all those skills that are useful for roleplaying, even if they have no other value. You rarely get those in other games. A good crafting system that is as complete as UO? Maybe DAoC or EQ, but certainly neither WoW nor LotRO, or which game do you know in which you can cut the wood, make the chair and then sit down on it too?

One of my fonder memories is the number of books that the Templar library and recruiting office had. What other game allows you to pass on books to other people to read? It's either IRC-like chat or Email-like messages. Convenient? Certainly! Good for roleplay? I don't think so!

You can complain about UO all you want with regards to EA messing up the PvE and PvP system, but they have left our freedom and possibility for roleplay intact. The choice before which we stand is ... Good PvE and PvP, then UO might not be so good. Do we compromise in favour of GREAT roleplay? WoW and LotRO certainly do not offer it in the way we are used to it in UO, but of course that's for everyone to answer for themselves.

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Achenar

I'm not a game developer but I'm sure a good one could create an MMORPG with enjoyable PvE, PvP and RP without compromising one of them for the others.

Rangarig

That's absolutely true. The world is full of compromises. And let's face it, the roleplayers are far from being the largest player-base out there.

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Ikus 1st

I remember well the conversations that UO pvp should never be about who was richest in the game. Because we never managed to make an UO economy anyway, and so it was just to use PVM with other chars to get gold. You had those playing a beggar wearing the latest in everything. When we got paladin skills it took 2 days before it was so watered that every little jack had it.

So can you say that this shouldnt be a problem... Well to me is this one of the biggest problems that have been. Why should you join a paladin order in Trinsic with a lot of restrictions when you could join a guild who didnt care about the skillset?

Then you can ask.. But this is what people want? I for one do not think so. You just need to encourage in the way you want to see. Europa rp is a lot about equipment and powerscrolls. Which was actually against everything we wanted in the first place.

Ikus

Vierna

Ikus is spot on here.

There are two aspects to this. On the one hand there are GM’s who are lax in what skillsets they allow and on the other hand there are players who put PvP capabilities above all else. There is it seems too much emphasis on PvP then tag on a characterisation as an afterthought. As a GM myself I have argued this point many times…the characterisation should always come first.

My guild is a Drow guild and as such there are certain skills, such as chivalry, which I do not allow. I have seen Drow characters in other guilds with this skill and it just does not make sense. Also I do not allow certain weapons such as pitch/war forks. Drow just would not use them but players feel it is a “cool” weapon because of its special move. But that is just my opinion others see it differently. All I ask is if you want to be a Drow in F^L then try to create the character within the bounds of known fiction. There is more to being a Drow than being a thug.

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Achenar

I'm sure roleplayers have never been either in UO, yet the game environment is friendly for roleplaying. (Or correct me if I'm wrong <_<)

Hedlyn

RE Vierna;

1. Can you please, please stop using "as a GM" to weight your arguments? Half the community's a GM these days, it means nothing, so why the need to add it? You're just giving me yet more grounds to call you stuck up and arrogant. ; )

2. If characterisation is so infinitely more important than abilities - why is your drow (remembering that no one's allowed to use their imagination and thus chivalry should be banned for the dark ones) running around with near GM bushido, 250 stats, a full valorite, human suit and a number of powerscrolled skills?

If characterisation is so vastly more important than why not drop the 100 skill points in zomg samurai and have, say, taste id / tracking / detect hidden to represent her heightened drow senses? Hrm, or, eval int / item ID / inscription to represent her intelligence and experience?

And if characterisation is so important - why does this fae like, super-intelligent, opinion-on-everything drow have more strength than the average Guardsman Besieger and less intelligence than, well, everyone?

The answer: Because you'd suck in a fight.

I don't mean to be overly critical of, specifically, you or your character. Go check out Hedlyn's template - 250 stats, quiver, Yew bows and I intend to be 105 fencing before I'm done. I'm not above my own critique, but I'm not naive enough to assume that everyone's going to focus entirely on what their character SHOULD have and not on what will be successful. I despise the fact we're all into powerscrolls and I hate the fact that Hedlyn, as a rebel leader, needs to be trumped up with trinkets to match his opponents in the like of Bladius and Klion, but that's the situation we have.

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