Ta'Samsca'Rial

These are perks but they don't determine someone's class. Someone in the middle class will (generally, ofcourse there are exceptions) have a middle class occupation, have a middle class wage and so will buy the trappings of the middle class. The same with upper or working. If they get laid off and have a period of unemployment they don't suddenly drop in class despite possibly having to move to a smaller house, buy a smaller car or cancel that trip to Hawaii. In the same way that if a familly scrapes together the funds to send a child to an expensive private school they don't suddenly shoot up to being upper class.

I disagree but theres not a huge amount I can say to dissuade you.

No it is the mindset. You don't need the money although obviously for most this is there but then consider many middle class people are far wealthier than todays upper class. You (well the aristocrat in question) walk into a room full of upper class people and know you have similar aspirations and desires. On the otherhand if you were in a room full of working class people their aspirations and hopes would be very different from yours. The same with a working class person or a middle class person.

Yes well.. thats the entire crux of the disagreement. I don't.
Just because he has had the money to complete any aspirations he has doesn't mean he has suddenly become upper class. Do you think he can relate with the lord of Northumberland more than he can relate to alot of aspiring, largely working class, footballers? He isn't considered upper class by upper class people (because he is clearly different) and so he is not upper class. I suspect Beckham may have become middle class but this hypothesis is based entirely upon what I suspect his aspirations are towards his children. I would assume he would want them to have good schooling and get a good job although whether that will happen is debatable.

But since the class system is breaking down it becomes difficult to categorize. You have the upper class, the upper middle class, the lower upper class (probably where Beckham would fit in) the middle class, the lower middle class, the working class and the under class and probably half a dozen I have missed out.

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Elise

My Quote:When someone is forced to become a full time carer for a relative, their desires, aspirations, chances in life, income, opportunities for socialisation with anyone (let alone the circle of friends they've had for years) all change. They wind up moving in the same circle of people as every other carer of a person with the same infirmity/disability as the person they care for, and their old lives are largely swallowed up by the demands of the new. They become different people, and 99% of that old life, before they began caring, is no longer relevant. Not only do I speak from personal experience here, but many of the new friends I've made since my children were born and diagnosed have related similar experiences.

I'm interested to know exactly what you disagree with here. I'd be more than happy to describe to you in great, excruciating detail about how much my personal and family circumstances have been forced to change over the past 8 years, and why I posted the above here in relation to class, but this particular debate isn't the place for such in-depth musings.

However, I will say this.

Class distinctions are, in part about people's perception of one another. I agree with you on that. However, such perceptions exclude the likes of David Beckham from the Upper Class, whereas the sociological definition of upper class does not. By the same token then, I am percieved to be a completely different class than I was born and brought up in, purely because of my family and life circumstances. Add in the fact that my social and financial circumstances have, of necessity, changed dramatically over the same time period as mentioned above and there you have it. Does that make me a different class? According to your examples, no. According to the sociological definition, and the judgement of others, hell yes it does.

(Incidentally, back on the subject of Becks, if, by your reckoning, he's fulfilled his middle class aspirations, then surely he'll be working on some upper class ones. People aren't static creatures after all. And if his aspirations have moved into the upper class, then by your definition that upper class people have upper class aspirations, that would make him upper class too, except for the judgement and perception of the other members of that social class. )

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Sally Buttons

Posh and Becks will never be aristocracy, no matter how much money they have. They are what's known as Nouveau Riche.

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cherry

whilst i can see many valid points in this discussion reading it back from start to finish it kind of leaves me feeling uncomfortable.....are we really this class obsessed as a society? does it really matter? for myself i treat people as the individuals they are regardless of background/race/colour/creed....some i will get on with, some I wont. This kind of discussion reminds me of how divisive our society is on so many different levels and saddens me somewhat. No disrespect to any of the posters here.....i guess there is an idealistic little bit of me which had hoped class had stopped meaning something a long time back.

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Paladis

Class,colour,creed means nothing to me as i dislike everyone equaly.

However i'm always curious as to other peoples views on stuff...lets face it if everyone thought the same the world would be a pretty boring and bland place indeed.

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angels_and_daemons

I think people here are more likely to be making observations on how "class" seems to affect people, and thier perceptions of each other rather than be the sort of folks who really care hugely about class as such.

Ebony&Markus

I have to admit, I don't judge people until I know them 100%. It doesn't matter what gender, class, sexuality, creed, religion or race they are, to me everyone is a human being. Actions speak louder than words. Like Cherry I judge people by who they are and how they treat me and other people.

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Fargo

What is class? David Beckham is now, was in the past and will continue to be... lower class. Nouveau riche is simply a term coined by enterprising tradesmen who found themselves not accepted by the upper class. Class is a mindset. For an example... What class is John Prescott?

Ebony&Markus

It is funny how society tries to put everybody into a category!

Meiko

Because its easier to know where we stand with someone when we catergorise them, it then subconciously tells us how we should then treat that person.

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Raul

It sickens me to be honest, i wholeheartly disagree with any form of Class distinction. Its a myth created by the Silver spoon brigade that anyone from a less fortunate up bringing can get anywhere in life and will live on as long as we pander to the toffy nosed bastards.

Im emensely proud of my family and everything we have achieved, nothing was given to us. We did it all off our owns backs, less can be said of people of the so called 'Upper Class'.

Varyne

If you get a pay packet at the end of the month and couldnt afford to pay your bills without it your working class, face the fact you wannabe social ladder climbing freaks.

Aeribian IV

Completely wrong way round

Nouveau Riche is a term coined by wealthy, inherited ('old money') so that the new rich people are not placed in the same cateorgary as themselves

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Aeribian IV

Pffft, my mother was an Estate agent and I work in payroll, i must be middle class.

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Fargo

Almost correct Aeribian, the landed gentry certainly adopted NR as a way of maintaining the "us and them" mentality, but it was an improvement from referring to them as nabobs I happen to think that the class system has long since ceased to serve a valid purpose, the only snobbery I encounter in day to day experience, is that of an intelectual basis.