Rabid Bogling

The Huns were some time earlier, the Mongols far later. That aside, I agree.

Though I don't think they arrived with the intent of conquest. I acctually think their arrival as Foederati was something more akin with the Gurkha regiment of today. There was a great deal of tradition behind their service to Briton kings (or earlier Roman Governers). It had been happening since around the 2nd-3rd century BC, methinks. So they go on down there to help fight Pictish or Irish invaders, sometimes even combating opposing tribes (namely the Saxons, who were by all accounts the Vikings of their day), and find themselves in large, seperate communities, usually clinging to the coast. Over time their leaders demand more and more from their masters, until eventually they rebel and seize power. Initially their neighbours couldn't care less, but as more and more immigrants come over, and more Foederati begin to rebel, it turns into a worry. Things get nasty, and you've suddenly got the starting of a struggle for dominance in Britain.

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Kaelith

ah yes.. well.. it was someone i thought

maybe it was that the saxons were used as mercs just for the gold and then when the huns pushed west, having already established a foot hold in england, they decided to go the whole hog and invade!

Ta'Samsca'Rial

You do have the Magyars moving across at about this time before they settle in the Carpathian Basin.

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Rabid Bogling

True.. that was considerably later on in the period though. Tieing in with the beginning of the Viking invasions, infact.

I've acctually heard it proposed before that the rebellions of English mercenaries may have been down to attempts at forced conversion leading to anarchy, leading to revolt. Makes sense to me.

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Gorthyn

Personally am inclined to believe that "Anglo-Saxon England" came about from a mixture of population movements/invasions and the cultural mixing - things are rarely clear cut in such matters.

As well as dna there is a test that can be done with teeth that denotes what part of europe a person was born. There are many burials from what are on the face of it early saxon cemetaries that have shown that those buried there were in fact native Britons even though the way they were buried woudl denote them as being Saxon.

Another reason for Saxon migration was possibly also climatic with sea levels in what is now Northern German coast rising and encroaching on farmland there.

As an aside - while DNA evidence for saxon invasion is for some sketchy there is much better proof of increased levels of Scandinavian DNA in the north and eastern parts of England - ie the area of the Danelaw which suggests there was widescale Viking colonisation in those areas.

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Gorthyn, Lord Cardinal of the Shadow Court.

Thorien

A clear picture of the state of england is very hard to come by in the dark ages, primarily due to the fact that the romano british didnt record much, and the chroniclers were extremely pro wessex and ignored such commendable leaders as Offa of Mercia let alone the kings of northumberland.
As to why the saxons came to england, The Romans had built the saxon shore forts to protect them against the raiding saxons, when the romans pulled out the resources of the armies and told briton to govern itself they went into disuse and opportunist leaders such as hengist, horsa, cerdic just grabbed chunks they could, after that is a tale of only so much room on an island and lots of people wanting their chunks of it.

cherry

There is strong archaeological evidence for saxon settlement in especially east Anglia, in the form of peoples from outside the English Isles - witnessed in the pottery traditions (eg: Thetford ware), burial traditions, building traditions etc....which are not found elsewhere in the country but for which comparisons can be seen on the continent. And it is inevitable with time that intermarriage would see the presence of so called "locals" appearing within saxon contexts.

But there was definate an element of "invasion" and taking of land by saxons....witnessed also by the pressence of late roman fortifications along the east coast such as the ones found at Caistor.

I think as always in this fair land of ours there is a period of conquest and then assimilation..........has happened for centuries. Now try defining what "English" is and there you have a connundrum even greater than Celtic considering the complex combination of cultures that have merged to make us what we are today.

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Thorien

There would be archaeological evidence for saxon settlement regardless of migration or invasion cos its the only way they know how to build them, so the only thing that actually proves is that the saxon's built houses.
As for Thetford Ware, it's been found throughout the north of england and the midlands, so was more a result of a generic trend caused by hand turned over kick turned pottery.
But as for building traditions and burial traditions similar environmental conditions to the low lands opposite them would have helped their development and adoption by the locals especially following the establishment of Danelaw, but i agree that proximity to the continent would have helped it in the same way as kent to be a prime place for colonisation in what ever form it took.

Gorthyn

Those who dispute the Saxon invasion theory say that the saxon shore forts were far more about being trade centres than protection (again not overly convinced myself just like throwing others views into the arena for discussion). Their point about burial traditions, housing etc is that this can be put down as much a cultural exchange across the North Sea as much as new comers actually settling the East Anglian lands. I suppose another East Anglian analogy of much later centuries is the presence of Dutch style gabled houses in Norfolk/Suffollk/North Essex that were from Dutch influence rather than Dutch settlement.

Interestingly am sure I read somewhere that "Hengist" and "Horsa" are in fact not Saxon names at all but Briton and apparanetly there is a physical description of one or other that bears this out, further muddying the waters of who these invaders actually were in some instances.

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Gorthyn, Lord Cardinal of the Shadow Court.

Rabid Bogling

Hengest and Horsa are both Old English words though. Stalion and Horse. Nah. Untill it can be well and truly dissproven I'll keep with the traditional view of English origins.

We could go 'round and 'round in circles with this topic for days and really get nowhere.

So out of genuine interest; does anybody know anything about the Bogomils? All I know is that it was Gnostic heresy born of the forced conversion and ensuing bitterness of the Bulgarians. It's something I've been meaning to look up on, but I don't know of any decent books to pick up. Suggestions?

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Kaelith

I know a little about the cathar heresy and the the beghards, but nothing further east i'm afraid.

It's only very recently I've found anything abuot these heresies. before that i only knew about crusades into the holy land! but i find it fascinating that crusader armies marched all over europe putting down heretical groups. and in most cases in a very bloody and brutal way!

Gorthyn

Yet other sources say that Hengist means Gelding and others cast doubt as to whether teh pair ever even existed. Guess teh point is that the evidence for both trdaitional and revisonist histories in many fields is often less conclusive than one may think.

As for the Bogomils am afraid I know next to nothing about them other than we supposedly get the word buggery from the the Catholic church's allegations that this was something they practiced.

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Gorthyn, Lord Cardinal of the Shadow Court.

Kaelith

What DO you know about the bogomils as I've heard of them before. What was their heretical belief?

The Cathars are interesting, I don't no much at all, but I do know they believed in a dualism between god and the devil. they believed that because there was so much evil and wrong in the world it couldn't have possibly be the construct of god, which led them to believe it must have been a construct of god and the devil, thus, the devil is actually another god, rather than just one of gods fallen angels.

the cathar heresy was mainly foudn in south france. one crusader force blinded every man, woman and child in a cathar stronghold except for 1 person who they only burned one eye out of, then chained them all together and the person with one eye led the line of blinded heretics out of the town and back to their village.

the beghards believed that it didn't matter what you did, god would still love you. if god was such a benevolent and forgiving person then how could he ever punish you for anything? so they would rob, kill and run around naked and were quite literally total anachists. I believe they were found in northern france. more than that i don't no.

i'd like to find out more about heretical groups in general i think they sound interesting! i do love purging heretic priests on medieval 2! but i also love seeing them roam the land converting weak priests to their cause! fantastic!

Rabid Bogling

The Bogomils were in many respects the same.

They believed in the material and spiritual realm, that the earth and creatures that dwell upon it were the design of some lesser deity (Satan perhaps), that Humanity are imprisoned within their bodies, being kept from the spiritual realm where God dwells, and that all things of the Flesh and Material Wealth were evil in nature. Other than that, I'm not too sure. They had a vast impact on following heresies, though, including that of the Cathars.

Coincidentally, the punishment you mentioned above - the mass blinding - was something practiced by an old Bulgarian King on a number of occasions.

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Kaelith

Ok, this could be a good conversation piece. medieval torture!

anyone know any cool medieval torturing techniques? or famour execution moments or anything about the area in general?