Raul

Another misconception, the lines of men going over the top was a European thing not just down to old Hague. Before the real implementation of armour (namely tanks) and any sort of decent artillery or aircraft, sending the boys over the top in mass was the only effective way to get to your enemy in a war of trenches and stalemates. The marching slowly comes from the first day of the battle of the Somme, where high command told the first wave of British troops to walk to the german trenches, in the insane belief that there artillery barrages had totally destroyed the enemy trenches. This is the only time i ever recall troops walking across no mans land in military formations.

This part of WW1 is of particular interest to my father, he has done extensive research on this subject mainly due to loosing his grandfather in said battle.

Gorthyn

Yes the British cared about the American revolution but it was by no means a singular type of care - Much of the British establishment identified and sympathised with the Colonists stance about taxation and representation so there was not a united will amongst it to defeat the rebellion.

Logistics also played a part especially once the French and particular their navy intervened and supply and reinforceing the Britsih troops in the colonies became increasingy difficult. The British surrendered at Yorktown as they didnt at that moment have the naval forces in place to break the French blockade out to sea a short while later and it would have been a very different situation.

King Georges intermittent madness was not a factor ( in fact dont think he suffered severe bouts of it until after the loss of the colonies) - also bear in mind that by that time it was the prime minister and the political parties that wielded the real power and decision making abilities even though the monarch still had considerably more residual power than they do today.

Had the British been fully commited and focussed on destroying the rebellion then I believe that they would have done over time and some sort of settlement along the lines of the later dominion status of canada etc may well have come about.

Also the loss of the 13 colonies - effectively the 1st British empire galavanised them into expansion elsewhere - namely India and the far east a 2nd empire if you will of a very different nature and make up to the first. Without the loss of the American colonies the British outlook on other parts of the world may well have been very different.

As for the Somme - yes the walking across no mans land was partly due to the belief that there would be no opposition. However it was also because the army of 1916 was very raw and relatively untrained. This was "Kitcheners Army" raised through wide scale volunteeering to replace the decimated army of 1914/15. Its lack of training meant that the General staff felt (quite rightly probably) that the units would be unable to perform complex and rapid manouveres on the battlefield. Tragically given the intact nature of the German defences that day it only served to increase the slaughter. That said it is important not to attribute it to the myth of stupid British Generals and of Hague in particular.

My own Grandfather happily survived Gallipoli in 1915 and the Battle of Ypres in 1917 and took part in the breaking of the Hindenburg line in 1918.

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Gorthyn, Lord Cardinal of the Shadow Court.

angels_and_daemons

Raul - my history teacher seemed to be under the impression that Hague ordered several such marches during his time in charge... something along the lines of "they haven't reported in so they must be behind enemy lines" ... if you're saying he was wrong I'll have to stand back and go "oh" as I'm not him... but it's certainly what we were being told

Raul

Hey im no History teacher, im just telling you what i know. As far as im aware the only time British troops were ordered to walk across no mans land in formation was during the battle of the river Somme.

Hague whilst infamous for sending the British troops over the top on mass, was not the only General to do this. Infact ALL the major powers involved in WW1 did this, including the Turks and US. As for Hague's terrible attitude towards his troops, well this was a relic of the Class system in the British Empire, you have to remember only the Upper Class's generally made officer. Working and Middle Class's were just canon fodder and used and treated as such.

angels_and_daemons

I've infact done some research since last posting...

One of the reasons for the first few regiments being told "walk forward slowly" was they were newly trained and they were worried the troops might have trouble doing manovers in formation, under the assumption that the artillery barrage had annihilated the german troops. Of course it hadn't and these poor sods were caught out in no mans land facing rifles and machine guns walking in formation.

Later troops were told to walk slowly so as to not get cufused as to who was who and end up shooting thier own troops... that way anyone who survived would get to the enemy trenches at roughly the same time.

And in fairness to Haige... the EXACT same tactic was used by the americans at normandy and afterwards - just have more troops than the enemy could kill and walk them forwards. It is a tactic that works and always will work if you can put enough men in the right places at the right time, it also means that defeat destroys your ability to wage war till you get more troops so it is a terrible plan, but luck was on Haige's side and the germans had a few less artillery pieces and machine guns that would have been needed. It's also a plan that shows total wanton disregard for human life, and I think under todays auspices he'd have been jailed for that waste of human life.

Raul

Very true, but that's what wars of attricion(sp?) like WW1 are all about.

Kaelith

anyone wish to revive this thread?

i've been reading a very interesting book about medieval armour and weapons. i believe the writter was a friend of laurance of arabie! goes into all the detail about how it was made and worn and how it evolved and everything. the main great thing about the book is that it's beautifully concise and not too long.

anyway. if anyone can think of something to talk about, please do!

Paladis

teasing us about an interesting book without revealing its title is so unfair

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Kaelith

Armour & Weapons by Charles Ffoulkes. originally written 1909

Paladis

Ta Kaelith...i'll look into sourceing it.

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Kaelith

it's such a good book. not a 100 pages long and yet goes into some depth about european armour from 1066 to 1700 or so. if you no little about armour it's certainly worth a read if you have an interest in it. i thought i knew quite a lot about armour infact, or the basics at least, but this really opens your eyes to the evolution of armour, as well as why and how it evolved and also goes into some detail about the main fashions that were prevalent through this period.

it also has nice pictures and drawings with names and labels which help alot.

it also goes into horse armour a little too )

Angst

Just discovered this thread, perhaps because it was renamed. It took some time for me to read through and catch up and has some interesting discussions. The TV channel Discovery Civilisation had some programmes on longbows, firearms, and different military strategies and tactics, including historical campaigns and battles.

Pikes were effective partly because their length meant the first 4 ranks could contribute to the pike-hedge, the phalanx could form square to defend against cavalry and had formidable momentum. But they needed well-trained and experienced soldiers to keep formation.

I've always been fascinated by the viking longship, so versatile - oar and wind propulsion, shallow draft so they could go far upriver, be portaged across river divides, but also capable of long-distance sea journeys.

__________________
Old and Decrepit Guiding Spirit of the Leafsta Survivors
Background: The Book of Leafsta,
Other: Smaed's Story, The Fiskdotter Matriarchy, Tyg's Tale,
The Smith and the Queen of the Elves.
Extracts from Jern's Journal
The Leafsta Survivors Chronology (OOC)

Kaelith

Lets not forget that there were innumberable types of longboat!

There were fat, deep ones for tradering and the warships were generally longer and sleeker.

I don't think they had names for different types though, it was more of a single design that they addapted for a different purpose. which is the other fantastic thing about them

Angst

I'm sure you are right, I'd never thought along those lines before. The longships were often built specifically, especially for the longer voyages.

There was also a difference in focus between Swedish and Norwegian/Danish vikings. The former focussed more on the east, Russia and eventually Constantinople, particularly trade. They travelled up the large Russian rivers, portaged the longships over the water divide (crossing the divide was itself an epic - a long and dangerous journey) and then sailed down to the Black Sea, a huge voyage. Eventually an elite viking guard (Varangians) was established to serve the Emperor. For a while there was a Swedish dynasty ruling Russia, and to this day in Finnish Swedes are called Rus (or something like that).

The Norwegians and Danes concentrated on trading and raiding over the North Sea, the Danes establishing Danelaw in the northeast of England and the early conquest of the English crown (Knut, or Canute). Norwegians focussed more on Shetland and Orkney and the Western Isles and Ireland, and pushing west, "land-hopping" from Ireland to Iceland, Greenland and finally Vinland, long before Columbus.

For those who can read Swedish Mats G. Larsson has written several books on these voyages both east and west. They are a bit heavy but make fascinating reading. I don't think they have been translated into English, though.

__________________
Old and Decrepit Guiding Spirit of the Leafsta Survivors
Background: The Book of Leafsta,
Other: Smaed's Story, The Fiskdotter Matriarchy, Tyg's Tale,
The Smith and the Queen of the Elves.
Extracts from Jern's Journal
The Leafsta Survivors Chronology (OOC)

Kaelith

I've heard of the Rus from reading Tim severin's Viking trilogy, which if anyone here is interested in vikings, is a fantastic faction based trilogy set in 1000AD.