callumf

"However the muskets should run to about 20-30 yards, fire and then charge with fixed bayonets (or club them to death with their guns depending on whether the bayonet yet exists)."

Probably more like the longbowmen should pump 2 or 3 arrows into the musketeers killing a fair amount , then running in and hacking them to pieces with their melee weapons before they have even loaded a musket and got a single shot off =)

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Ta'Samsca'Rial

Except that the melee weapon for longbowmen seems to be a big knife or a mallet for knocking pikes into the ground.

I think I would rather have a large club or a short spear....

Infact the musketeers would probably be best served dispensing with firing all together and just closing with the aim to beat the longbowmen to death.

callumf

"Infact the musketeers would probably be best served dispensing with firing all together and just closing with the aim to beat the longbowmen to death."

That made me seriously laugh out loud =)

Its so true +0

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Klion D'Gar

Vastly inferior is correct. There was nothing special about a Samurai, they were no more courageous than someone from China or France. Sure they had discipline and tactics, but so did most professional armies...

The reason the Japanese culture of that period was (and continues to be) inferior to those in the west is simple; they failed to pair their military with science. Obviously they did try amend this between 1900 and 1949, but obviously they didn't do well enough...

Bravery alone dioes not make you a good warrior!

Klion D'Gar

Muskets were not really designed for precision, even in the 19th century they relied on numbers to kill. I fancy an archer over a musket user any day! Even in hand to hand the Archer with huge muscular arms would stand a better chance I bet!

Darkion

Samurai were very advanced when the west was still very primitive its beleive, However due to Japan having No contactiwit the outside world and not being discovered 'till most western societys had become relativley advanced they were hadn't advanced much whereas the rest of the world did. I think so anyway.. or so T.V Says!

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Klion D'Gar

Japanese culture (like the people) came from China, so yes they were quite advanced. The fact they had no contact with the outside world is possibly the reason why they fell so far behind, but that doesn't really dispute my original point.

I am not saying Japanese people are stupid or anything, nor am I saying they are poor fighters. What I am saying is that their culture was and continues to be militarily inferior to the West - the reasons WHY this was the case are a side issue.

Ta'Samsca'Rial

Define Samurai and then define Knight.

They stretch through large periods of history and as such when they meet will have a major effect upon the engagement. What are they equipped with? If the Samurai is essentially a horse archer then the Knight is unlikely to have much joy. If the Samurai is essentially an arquebusier then the Knight will likely run him down where he stands, unless ofcourse he dies by the bullet.

If the Samurai is of the period 1600-1870~ and the Knight is a soldier of this period then the Knight will win with ease. On the otherhand if the Knight is a courtly fop then favour probably swings back to the Samurai.

As for archers.. you can keep them. I will stick to the grenadiers. I will just arrange for the battle to occur when it is windy...

Gorthyn

Such was the demand for Yew in England - English merchants were required by law to bring it back on their return journies from the Continent.

A bow with 100lb drawstring will easily punch through plate mail and a whole lot of the softy squishy knight encased within as well - muskets became popular as indeed any peasant could be be lined up and be able to shoot them - same thing with crossbows.

We get various phrases in the English from archery. For example - the ends of the bows were known as knocks and when the compulsary practice sessions people have already talked of began the bow strings had to be extended over them. This was known as knocking on. At the end they were unstrung - knocking off which to this day is used as slang for the end of the work day of course.

Also the phrase "keep it under your hat" comes from the practice of the archers keeping their bowstrings under their hats to keep them dry. Apparently the French never figured this out - therefore its used as slang for keeping a secret.

Ladies hand bags are direct descendents of the shoulder bags worn by the archers. After the battle when they were looking for dead enemies to rob (easy loot was rings on fingers) to save time they would simply cut off the hands and put them in the bag - hence hand bag....

Plus the two fingered salute of course comes from the gesture made by bowmen to show that all their fingers were intact - if the French captured them they would cut off the fingers they used to draw the bow string to stop them firing one ever again.

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Kaelith

thank you gorthyn! that was an awesome post

didn't know about some of those phrases, they are classics!

we all know about the 2 finger salute, or at least any english or welsh people should!

although i would say that it depended on the range for how easily an arrow from a 100lb bow would go through plate armour. and on this issue i think we have to accept that the longbow COULD penetrate plate armour at some range, but this depended heavily on: the quality of the metal in the arrow head, which arrow head was used, the quality of the metal in the plate armour, what design the plate armour was and also weather conditions, the angle of the shot etc.

so we could summise that a bodkin point made of good quality steel could probably penetrate a poorly designed breast plate made of poor quality iron/steel at 200 yards. however, the same bodkin would probably struggle to penetrate a well designed, good quality breast plate until the target got within 50 yards.

on the flip side, a poor quality bodkin point would probably not penetrate any plate armour over 100 yards and possibly would struggle to ever penetrate the fine quality plate armour worn by the higher aristocrats until maybe within 20 yards... if it did ever.

Wilfred Owen

They weren't professional soldiers to start with. Sure they were professional at using the Longbow but not soldiering. That came later in the campaign. as with the mercenary work, why would a peasent go back to shitty working for t'lord. when he can shoot his Longbow for cash?

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Ta'Samsca'Rial

Well in theory no one is a professional when they begin a career.

Wilfred Owen

Unless you had it as a hobby first..

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Ta'Samsca'Rial

But unless your paid for it your not a professional.
Besides theres more to campaigning than shooting arrows.

Gorthyn

The change from feudal armies to more "professional" ones came about through various factors. The time needed to become proficient with a bow in the case of longbowmen being just one.

In an effective and strong feudal system in the earlier medieval period the peasants would have had little choice but to go back to work on their Lords land - they were granted that strip of land in return for military service - as were the Lords in a chain right up to the monarch. With little in the way of a market economy subsistence farming on that land was vital for simple survival for the feudal soldier and his family.

However the Black Death and the massive population decrease that brought about fundamentally undermined the feudal system and in turn the feudal way of raising armies. Manpower was in short supply so those who wanted it either working on their land or fighting in their armies had to start paying.

In addition feudal armies are only suitable for short term campaigns - the terms of service were only a matter of weeks or a couple of months then everyone expected to go back home to bring in the harvest etc.

Therefore in a conflict as long as the Hundred years war where the English had to sustain garrisons in their conquered territories, the only way to do so would have been through payment rather than feudal dues.

The conflict also gave rise to what was known as the "Free Companies" ie very large and successful mercenary armies employed by the crown.

Longbowmen were the most highly prized and not just by the English. The Duke of Burgundy employed many english bowmen in his struggles against the French too.

The Earl of Warwick "The Kingmaker" had Cheshire bowmen as his personal bodyguard unit, not that it did him much good in the end.

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